Discussion:
Charges Sought Against Rumsfeld Over Prison Abuse
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Imperialist Watch
2006-11-12 10:55:14 UTC
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http://www.time.com/time/nation/printout/0,8816,1557842,00.html

Friday, Nov. 10, 2006
Exclusive: Charges Sought Against Rumsfeld Over Prison Abuse
A lawsuit in Germany will seek a criminal prosecution of the outgoing
Defense Secretary and other U.S. officials for their alleged role in abuses
at Abu Ghraib and Gitmo
By ADAM ZAGORIN
Just days after his resignation, former Defense Secretary Donald Rumsfeld is
about to face more repercussions for his involvement in the troubled wars in
Iraq and Afghanistan. New legal documents, to be filed next week with
Germany's top prosecutor, will seek a criminal investigation and prosecution
of Rumsfeld, along with Attorney General Alberto Gonzales, former CIA
director George Tenet and other senior U.S. civilian and military officers,
for their alleged roles in abuses committed at Iraq's Abu Ghraib prison and
at the U.S. detention facility at Guantanamo Bay, Cuba.

The plaintiffs in the case include 11 Iraqis who were prisoners at Abu
Ghraib, as well as Mohammad al-Qahtani, a Saudi held at Guantanamo, whom the
U.S. has identified as the so-called "20th hijacker" and a would-be
participant in the 9/11 hijackings. As TIME first reported in June 2005,
Qahtani underwent a "special interrogation plan," personally approved by
Rumsfeld, which the U.S. says produced valuable intelligence. But to obtain
it, according to the log of his interrogation and government reports,
Qahtani was subjected to forced nudity, sexual humiliation, religious
humiliation, prolonged stress positions, sleep deprivation and other
controversial interrogation techniques.

Lawyers for the plaintiffs say that one of the witnesses who will testify on
their behalf is former Brig. Gen. Janis Karpinski, the one-time commander of
all U.S. military prisons in Iraq. Karpinski - who the lawyers say will be
in Germany next week to publicly address her accusations in the case - has
issued a written statement to accompany the legal filing, which says, in
part: "It was clear the knowledge and responsibility [for what happened at
Abu Ghraib] goes all the way to the top of the chain of command to the
Secretary of Defense Donald Rumsfeld ."

A spokesperson for the Pentagon told TIME there would be no comment since
the case has not yet been filed.

Along with Rumsfeld, Gonzales and Tenet, the other defendants in the case
are Undersecretary of Defense for Intelligence Stephen Cambone; former
assistant attorney general Jay Bybee; former deputy assisant attorney
general John Yoo; General Counsel for the Department of Defense William
James Haynes II; and David S. Addington, Vice President Dick Cheney's chief
of staff. Senior military officers named in the filing are General Ricardo
Sanchez, the former top Army official in Iraq; Gen. Geoffrey Miller, the
former commander of Guantanamo; senior Iraq commander, Major General Walter
Wojdakowski; and Col. Thomas Pappas, the one-time head of military
intelligence at Abu Ghraib.

Germany was chosen for the court filing because German law provides
"universal jurisdiction" allowing for the prosecution of war crimes and
related offenses that take place anywhere in the world. Indeed, a similar,
but narrower, legal action was brought in Germany in 2004, which also sought
the prosecution of Rumsfeld. The case provoked an angry response from
Pentagon, and Rumsfeld himself was reportedly upset. Rumsfeld's spokesman at
the time, Lawrence DiRita, called the case a "a big, big problem." U.S.
officials made clear the case could adversely impact U.S.-Germany relations,
and Rumsfeld indicated he would not attend a major security conference in
Munich, where he was scheduled to be the keynote speaker, unless Germany
disposed of the case. The day before the conference, a German prosecutor
announced he would not pursue the matter, saying there was no indication
that U.S. authorities and courts would not deal with allegations in the
complaint.

In bringing the new case, however, the plaintiffs argue that circumstances
have changed in two important ways. Rumsfeld's resignation, they say, means
that the former Defense Secretary will lose the legal immunity usually
accorded high government officials. Moreover, the plaintiffs argue that the
German prosecutor's reasoning for rejecting the previous case - that U.S.
authorities were dealing with the issue - has been proven wrong.

"The utter and complete failure of U.S. authorities to take any action to
investigate high-level involvement in the torture program could not be
clearer," says Michael Ratner, president of the Center for Constitutional
Rights, a U.S.-based non-profit helping to bring the legal action in
Germany. He also notes that the Military Commissions Act, a law passed by
Congress earlier this year, effectively blocks prosecution in the U.S. of
those involved in detention and interrogation abuses of foreigners held
abroad in American custody going to back to Sept. 11, 2001. As a result,
Ratner contends, the legal arguments underlying the German prosecutor's
previous inaction no longer hold up.

Whatever the legal merits of the case, it is the latest example of efforts
in Western Europe by critics of U.S. tactics in the war on terror to call
those involved to account in court. In Germany, investigations are under way
in parliament concerning cooperation between the CIA and German intelligence
on rendition - the kidnapping of suspected terrorists and their removal to
third countries for interrogation. Other legal inquiries involving rendition
are under way in both Italy and Spain.

U.S. officials have long feared that legal proceedings against "war
criminals" could be used to settle political scores. In 1998, for example,
former Chilean dictator Augusto Pinochet - whose military coup was supported
by the Nixon administration - was arrested in the U.K. and held for 16
months in an extradition battle led by a Spanish magistrate seeking to
charge him with war crimes. He was ultimately released and returned to
Chile. More recently, a Belgian court tried to bring charges against then
Israeli Prime Minister Ariel Sharon for alleged crimes against Palestinians.

For its part, the Bush Administration has rejected adherence to the
International Criminal Court (ICC) on grounds that it could be used to
unjustly prosecute U.S. officials. The ICC is the first permanent tribunal
established to prosecute war crimes, genocide and other crimes against
humanity.

--
Civil disobedience is not our problem. Our problem is civil obedience. Our
problem is that numbers of people all over the world have obeyed the
dictates of the leaders of their government and have gone to war, and
millions have been killed because of this obedience. . . Our problem is that
people are obedient all over the world in the face of poverty and starvation
and stupidity, and war, and cruelty. Our problem is that people are obedient
while the jails are full of petty thieves, and all the while the grand
thieves are running the country. That's our problem. - Howard Zinn
Neill
2006-11-12 13:54:22 UTC
Permalink
Post by Imperialist Watch
http://www.time.com/time/nation/printout/0,8816,1557842,00.html
Friday, Nov. 10, 2006
Exclusive: Charges Sought Against Rumsfeld Over Prison Abuse
A lawsuit in Germany will seek a criminal prosecution of the outgoing
Defense Secretary and other U.S. officials for their alleged role in abuses
at Abu Ghraib and Gitmo
By ADAM ZAGORIN
What jurisdiction does a German court have in Abu Ghraib and Gitmo?
Dweezil Dwarftosser
2006-11-13 08:08:03 UTC
Permalink
Post by Imperialist Watch
Post by Imperialist Watch
http://www.time.com/time/nation/printout/0,8816,1557842,00.html
Friday, Nov. 10, 2006
Exclusive: Charges Sought Against Rumsfeld Over Prison Abuse
A lawsuit in Germany will seek a criminal prosecution of the outgoing
Defense Secretary and other U.S. officials for their alleged role in
abuses
Post by Imperialist Watch
at Abu Ghraib and Gitmo
By ADAM ZAGORIN
What jurisdiction does a German court have in Abu Ghraib and Gitmo?
None.
Neill
2006-11-13 12:42:26 UTC
Permalink
Post by Imperialist Watch
Post by Imperialist Watch
http://www.time.com/time/nation/printout/0,8816,1557842,00.html
Friday, Nov. 10, 2006
Exclusive: Charges Sought Against Rumsfeld Over Prison Abuse
A lawsuit in Germany will seek a criminal prosecution of the outgoing
Defense Secretary and other U.S. officials for their alleged role in
abuses
Post by Imperialist Watch
at Abu Ghraib and Gitmo
By ADAM ZAGORIN
What jurisdiction does a German court have in Abu Ghraib and Gitmo?
None.
We must be giving financial aid to every country in the world that isn't
eating our lunch in the global economy. What international court in the
world would even consider bringing charges?

The only possible explanation is that this report is politically motivated.
It's amazing that the very freedom for which Americans have fought and died,
is then misused by those who would neither fight for it, nor support it's
defense. It was so in Vietnam, and it's true today. The fact that the
criticism exists, invalidates it.

BWAHAHAHA
.***@see_my_sig_for_address.com
2006-11-13 13:44:39 UTC
Permalink
On Mon, 13 Nov 2006 03:08:03 -0500, Dweezil Dwarftosser
Post by Imperialist Watch
Post by Imperialist Watch
http://www.time.com/time/nation/printout/0,8816,1557842,00.html
Friday, Nov. 10, 2006
Exclusive: Charges Sought Against Rumsfeld Over Prison Abuse
A lawsuit in Germany will seek a criminal prosecution of the outgoing
Defense Secretary and other U.S. officials for their alleged role in
abuses
Post by Imperialist Watch
at Abu Ghraib and Gitmo
By ADAM ZAGORIN
What jurisdiction does a German court have in Abu Ghraib and Gitmo?
None.
They just like to THINK they do.
--
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Paul ( pjm @ pobox . com ) - remove spaces to email me
'Some days, it's just not worth chewing through the restraints.'
'With sufficient thrust, pigs fly just fine.'
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Dweezil Dwarftosser
2006-11-13 15:46:22 UTC
Permalink
Post by .***@see_my_sig_for_address.com
On Mon, 13 Nov 2006 03:08:03 -0500, Dweezil Dwarftosser
Post by Neill
What jurisdiction does a German court have in Abu Ghraib and Gitmo?
None.
They just like to THINK they do.
True.
While most nations recognize their right to prosecute those
who committed war crimes in the name of the nazi German
reich, (even if living somewhere without extradition treaties
or a functional government) - Germany has learned a lot from
US liberal activist judges over the years: a constitutional
provision means little more than what home-grown political
correctness decides it SHOULD mean this week.

The US has not ratified any treaty handing over jurisdiction
of the military's actions to any judicial body other than
US federal (to include military) courts.

In some cases, NATO status-of-forces agreements permit host
nations to request trial in their civilian courts for grevious
offenses committed in that country by US forces assigned to
that country, rather than in US military courts.

AFAIK, Rumsfeld was never stationed in Germany.
.***@see_my_sig_for_address.com
2006-11-13 16:11:29 UTC
Permalink
On Mon, 13 Nov 2006 10:46:22 -0500, Dweezil Dwarftosser
Post by Dweezil Dwarftosser
Post by .***@see_my_sig_for_address.com
On Mon, 13 Nov 2006 03:08:03 -0500, Dweezil Dwarftosser
Post by Neill
What jurisdiction does a German court have in Abu Ghraib and Gitmo?
None.
They just like to THINK they do.
True.
While most nations recognize their right to prosecute those
who committed war crimes in the name of the nazi German
reich, (even if living somewhere without extradition treaties
or a functional government) - Germany has learned a lot from
US liberal activist judges over the years: a constitutional
provision means little more than what home-grown political
correctness decides it SHOULD mean this week.
The US has not ratified any treaty handing over jurisdiction
of the military's actions to any judicial body other than
US federal (to include military) courts.
YET.

Just wait until ( if ) we get a Dem President over a Dem
Congress. Here comes the Treaty of Rome, here comes the ICC, here
comes some socialist freak-job in Germany or France using the 'PC'
laws of the EU to file a complaint in Brussels, and here comes an
international subpoena for the entire leadership of this country to
stand trial in Belgium, under UN 'laws'.
Post by Dweezil Dwarftosser
In some cases, NATO status-of-forces agreements permit host
nations to request trial in their civilian courts for grevious
offenses committed in that country by US forces assigned to
that country, rather than in US military courts.
AFAIK, Rumsfeld was never stationed in Germany.
--
Click here every day to feed an animal that needs you today !!!
http://www.theanimalrescuesite.com/

Paul ( pjm @ pobox . com ) - remove spaces to email me
'Some days, it's just not worth chewing through the restraints.'
'With sufficient thrust, pigs fly just fine.'
HVAC/R program for Palm PDA's
Free demo now available online http://pmilligan.net/palm/
Neill
2006-11-13 22:23:59 UTC
Permalink
Post by .***@see_my_sig_for_address.com
On Mon, 13 Nov 2006 10:46:22 -0500, Dweezil Dwarftosser
Post by Dweezil Dwarftosser
Post by .***@see_my_sig_for_address.com
On Mon, 13 Nov 2006 03:08:03 -0500, Dweezil Dwarftosser
Post by Neill
What jurisdiction does a German court have in Abu Ghraib and Gitmo?
None.
They just like to THINK they do.
True.
While most nations recognize their right to prosecute those
who committed war crimes in the name of the nazi German
reich, (even if living somewhere without extradition treaties
or a functional government) - Germany has learned a lot from
US liberal activist judges over the years: a constitutional
provision means little more than what home-grown political
correctness decides it SHOULD mean this week.
The US has not ratified any treaty handing over jurisdiction
of the military's actions to any judicial body other than
US federal (to include military) courts.
YET.
Just wait until ( if ) we get a Dem President over a Dem
Congress. Here comes the Treaty of Rome, here comes the ICC, here
comes some socialist freak-job in Germany or France using the 'PC'
laws of the EU to file a complaint in Brussels, and here comes an
international subpoena for the entire leadership of this country to
stand trial in Belgium, under UN 'laws'.
What is one tryannical dictatorial government to another to you?
Post by .***@see_my_sig_for_address.com
Post by Dweezil Dwarftosser
In some cases, NATO status-of-forces agreements permit host
nations to request trial in their civilian courts for grevious
offenses committed in that country by US forces assigned to
that country, rather than in US military courts.
AFAIK, Rumsfeld was never stationed in Germany.
--
Click here every day to feed an animal that needs you today !!!
http://www.theanimalrescuesite.com/
'Some days, it's just not worth chewing through the restraints.'
'With sufficient thrust, pigs fly just fine.'
HVAC/R program for Palm PDA's
Free demo now available online http://pmilligan.net/palm/
Pudentame
2006-11-18 21:59:18 UTC
Permalink
Post by Neill
Post by Imperialist Watch
http://www.time.com/time/nation/printout/0,8816,1557842,00.html
Friday, Nov. 10, 2006
Exclusive: Charges Sought Against Rumsfeld Over Prison Abuse
What jurisdiction does a German court have in Abu Ghraib and Gitmo?
If memory serves Nuremberg is in Germany.
.***@see_my_sig_for_address.com
2006-11-18 23:20:21 UTC
Permalink
Post by Pudentame
Post by Neill
Post by Imperialist Watch
http://www.time.com/time/nation/printout/0,8816,1557842,00.html
Friday, Nov. 10, 2006
Exclusive: Charges Sought Against Rumsfeld Over Prison Abuse
What jurisdiction does a German court have in Abu Ghraib and Gitmo?
A ) They passed a law that they claim lets them prosecute
'anything anywhere regardless of nexus', called 'Universal
Jurisdiction'. Several others have it, too. Belgium, if I recall,
perhaps others.

B ) The attempt at filing the suit has already been thrown
out. They tired it a few years ago, too, and it got thrown out then,
too.

C ) The suit named a BUNCH of people in the administration and
the military, not just Rumsfield.
Post by Pudentame
If memory serves Nuremberg is in Germany.
--
Click here every day to feed an animal that needs you today !!!
http://www.theanimalrescuesite.com/

Paul ( pjm @ pobox . com ) - remove spaces to email me
'Some days, it's just not worth chewing through the restraints.'
'With sufficient thrust, pigs fly just fine.'
HVAC/R program for Palm PDA's
Free demo now available online http://pmilligan.net/palm/
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